In honor of Hispanic Heritage Month, Kate talked to Isabel Espina, VP of Product Development at ADP, about diversity in the workplace. Isabel shared her experience as a Latina technologist and emphasized the importance of encouraging young people from underrepresented communities to pursue tech careers. They also discuss Latinos in tech and how tech careers are perceived in the Latinx community.
Kate: [00:00:07] Hey everyone, welcome to Life at ADP, the podcast. This is Kate. You may notice that today's episode, our format is a little bit different, and that's because our dear Ingrid is out on some much well-deserved PTO. So, I'm taking the opportunity to sit down and have a one-on-one chat with our guests today. So, let's jump right in because we have a ton to cover. Everyone, please welcome Isabel Espina to the podcast. Isabel is Vice President of Product Development for our Technology division here, and she is based out of Manhattan. So, Isabel, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Isabel: [00:00:48] Thank you.
Kate: [00:00:49] So, you know, obviously you're an executive Women in Tech, which is amazing, a diverse woman. What are some things that you'd like to lean into and share with candidates and people about working at ADP?
Isabel: [00:01:03] One thing I would say that that I love about ADP is that I think the culture is extremely welcoming to diversity, right? So one of the things that I'm very passionate about is with these BRGs, like, you know, they're that, you know, intersectional piece, right? Like I'm a, you know, what are all my hats? Well, I'm a technologist. I'm a woman. I'm a leader. I'm a Latina, etcetera. So, you know, how do we bring all this together and, you know, and and I I do love that I feel that ADP really embraces our diversity. And like, even for me and I make mention of Carlos, but, you know, like, I remember like my my family even like, oh, my God, like, you know, a CEO of a Fortune 500 company is an immigrant just like me, like born in Cuba, immigrated to this country like, you know, rose to such high levels. So, I think the company embraces diversity and allows us to be ourselves. We can bring to the table who we are, and that's embraced, right? So I think that that that's I think our culture, ADP's culture embraces, truly embraces, isn't. I mean, everybody talks about D&I. I feel like it's authentic. Diversity is the fabric of our of our culture at ADP starts at the executive levels. And you know we bid farewell to our CEO, Carlos Rodriguez, also a Cuban immigrant.
Isabel: [00:02:33] I could look in the organization, and I'm represented, I there's a woman CEO, there was a Cuban immigrant CEO. Like I'm like, whoa, like I too can, you know, um, you know, rise to ranks and whatnot. Um, so then I, you know, when we say our culture and makeup is one that diverse, embraces diversity, we see it in action, then, you know, weave that into our products. We thrive when our products mirror the diversity of our consumers, right. And obviously, you know, our population is very, you know, diverse and how important it is to ensure that that that we all are in tune to those different facets so that we can, you know, build products that resonate with our customers, you know, and then really, it's like, how how do I, as a Latina technologist, ensure that, you know, my community is aware of what all it is to be an engineer? Like what are all the possibilities? What is all the potential, right? Because, you know, I mean, the Latinx demographic in this country is is huge. And many and many come, you know, with the immigrant parents that maybe don't, you know, don't speak the language and, you know, like being able to tap into the that young community, something that I'm definitely passionate about.
Isabel: [00:04:01] And I know, like probably, I don't know, couple years ago, I did this fireside chat for Adelante during Hispanic Heritage Month. And like that sort of like reminded me, like, wait a minute, like, you know, it's always like, you know, women in tech, women in tech. And I'm like, wait a minute, like, I'm I'm forgetting about my peeps, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, there's such a small representation of Latinx and, you know, people from that pocket is not well represented in technology at all, even way worse than women, you know, what can I do to help instruct, educate, mentor, inspire, you name it, right? So to me, when I think of Hispanic Heritage, I think about how we can bring in diversity because, you know, diversity, even in the Latinx community is, there's so many different cultures, right? So it's a very, very diverse community, right? And, like, how do you, you know, ensure that you tap into that for different ideas, innovation, representation for customers, right.
Kate: [00:05:13] If you don't mind me asking, Isabel, what is the intersectionality of Latinos in tech? Like what I know, underrepresented, but how are technology careers perceived in the Latin Latinx community? Is it something that's esteemed? Is it something that, you know, perhaps young technologists need some guidance in how to talk to their parents for support in joining a career in tech?
Isabel: [00:06:23] I think it's probably just similar. Just tech in general, right. Where I think, you know, tech is a little bit of a we all use tech like in, you know, all demographics, whether you speak English or not. Who doesn't have a mobile phone and all that, but I think that and again, I don't think it's unique to the Latinx community. Um, it's really understanding, like, what does it mean, you know, what are the various careers, right? And like, you know, I think we all imagine, um, you know, tech is like I.T. support or tech means that I'm, I'm coding and that that job sounds really boring. You know, like I sit there with some, like, screen and a bunch of, you know, like when you just like the visual like that. That's not like, I don't want to do that. Like, I don't think I, you know, if you would have shown me that like when I was in high school, I don't want to do that. Like, you know what I mean? So, you know, like, how do you instruct people that there are so many different facets to technology? Like, you know, it's like building a house, right? It's that like,
Kate: [00:07:29] I love that.
Isabel: [00:07:30] concept of like, you know, what do I want to do? And then like all, you know, there's all these layers and all these different skills, right? There's electricians and plumbers and, you know, people put a foundation, right? There's an architect, there's a general contractor. And that's that's how we build software. But nobody really that's things something that people don't really understand unless you that's what you do for a living.
Isabel: [00:07:55] Yeah. So I think if you start, you know, just educating people on, you know, when we say technology, it's not like, you know, sitting behind a computer all day just, you know, like writing this text, this, like, voodoo language that spits out stuff, you know, and that like there's, you know, design and, and thinking about like, processes and how do you, I mean, there's so much to it. And I and I think that's why, you know, there is so little talent so you know how many kids don't know Like my my son is a senior now, that you talk to these kids, like so few of them will tell you that they want to go into that because it's a little bit of like I don't think people understand it well enough to know what all the jobs are, like people just think, Oh, it's coding, it's coding. Well, I don't really like coding and they don't think about like coding is almost like I'm putting like the nails on the wall. There's a lot of like conceptualization and solving hard problems and like understanding like almost the ergonomic, like, you know, how, how does a user interact? Like, how, how can it be like a smooth experience? How can I make it really easy? How can I, like, understand data and give you information, right? Like, so when I think of the you know, and it's not only in the Latin community and underrepresented right and they are even more at a disadvantage, right? Because they don't have, you know, all these like, you know, ability to speak to folks that have a variety of jobs, right?
Isabel: [00:09:30] Their networks are smaller, right. So it's really like information like that sort of information they they don't have. So they don't really understand that. I think they all understand that getting an education is really important. They know that, yes, education is key, but this is almost like let me explain to you, like, you know, there's like doctor, nurse, lawyer, like everybody understands, right? I know exactly what that job is, right?
Kate: [00:10:00] Yes.
Isabel: [00:10:01] Engineer, like, I don't know, like, tell me more, right. And like, you know, then you think engineer. Okay. It's like a civil engineer. You design bridges, okay, but like, you know what I mean, when you get more nuance, like, like I think people start like, I don't even know, like, what job would you do? Like what? Like, what does that even mean? You know, or like, okay, computer scientist. Well, I don't want to just sit and write code, but some people do. But there are so many other jobs within tech that are not just sitting there like spitting out code, although sometimes the code is the hammer, right? It's not like the thing you're creating, but like it's the hammer. It's like that's, that's just the, the, the means to do this. But what I'm excited about is the thing I'm creating, you know, so like,
Kate: [00:10:53] Yep, you press that button and it all comes together.
Isabel: [00:10:55] And yeah then, then it's like magical, like, oh my God, you know, and then then all of a sudden like, okay, yeah, I do want to code because actually that's pretty cool. That's like using a hammer, you know what I mean?
Kate: [00:11:04] Sure.
Isabel: [00:11:05] So, like, that's that's the thing that I think needs, you know, again, not just for Latinx, just in general, for like young people to understand and demystify, you know, what that means. And all the the jobs and all the opportunities there are within this within like, let's say, STEM. So that's like from the angle of inspiring young people. And then I guess on the other side is like, you know, our clients are very diverse, right? Our clients, you know, there's a huge population that that represent the Latin community. So, you know, bringing folks in that understand what are the needs of that community or what resonates in that community or etcetera, is only lets us serve them better.
Kate: [00:11:56] So let's let's talk about inspiration. What would your advice be for someone considering a career in technology? What are some things that they should think about and also what will keep them moving forward?
Isabel: [00:12:12] I think, first of all, to not be afraid to move around and experiment with with things that maybe they have some interest, but they don't have expertise or don't know enough about, because I think one of the the beauties of technology, right, is that it's like you are a lifelong learner, right? You'll never know everything you need to know to do the job because, you know, the job is constantly changing underneath you, right? That's the technology is constantly evolving and changing. Um, so, you know, don't be afraid to experiment. Be curious. I mean, that to me is critical. I would say also it's really important to maintain a network.
Kate: [00:12:57] That's a great one.
Isabel: [00:12:58] Yeah. Maintain a, you know, a professional network almost like a network of folks that, you know, have a specialty in some area that you're interested, let's say technology, but also have a network of folks that can help you navigate the professional world, not just the, you know, how do I solve this hard technical problem, but, you know, how do I navigate an organization or, you know, how do I establish relationships that in those relationships I'll learn about a different part of the organization or maybe a different technology or something, some nugget that will be, you know, that will help drive my career, right? So it's very important to be to, to nurture a network. Um, I think also one of the things with like folks younger as a result of Covid, right, is that they don't want to, you know, they don't want to come into the office. They want to be comfortable. They want to work from home. I mean, yeah, flexibility is great, but in order to be able to move, meeting people, letting them know you like in 3D is really important. And, you know, establishing those relationships, you will get nuggets of information that are really hard to establish in, you know, in a WebEx because in a WebEx, you, you almost you have to know who do I set up time with on their calendar? I'm not going to bump into them at the coffee station.
Kate: [00:14:40] I love that. So you heard that a lot from our interns, too, Isabel, just so you know, like I think I think we're seeing a really interesting shift. I think there's a small portion of younger talent that like being home because they just like to be home. I think there's people who genuinely like being in the office and meeting that that demographic, like every intern that I spoke to on site in Alpharetta, they were ecstatic to be in the office they want, and I don't think they were just saying that like every time I'd see them in the hall, you know, starting they would always say, Hey, Kate, what's going on? I'm running to a meeting. Like they thrive off that. And so, you know, I wonder if we're kind of going back to that side. And I'll say, like, I was in the office Monday, Tuesday, I'll be in tomorrow and Friday, you know, same thing. I love seeing people. You know, it just it helps what you're doing. It really, really, really, really does. I love that you brought that up, too. Um, and it's really interesting to hear that from a senior leader. And then also having heard it from our interns, like talk about a spectrum of where people are in their, in their careers, you know.
Isabel: [00:15:46] I think though that where it's where I'm seeing it's a little dicey is like in the middle, I think, with folks that have younger children. And I think during pandemic we they were all. All had no choice but to figure out a different model for child care. And and I think now coming back to the office is extremely challenging, right? Because we were able to like, sort of managed it better than back in the day where, you know, you had to punch, you know, punch the clock, you know what I mean? Like five days a week, you had to have that child care this and now you've, you know, it's a different model. You have more time with your your child. Also, you can kind of juggle both. And they don't want to come back. Right. Like that. Like that. That's that's the middle demographic that I see. And I and I understand it. I totally understand, you know, And it's a little ironic, right? Because in technology, that's the beauty of you. We've had that flexibility, that remote ability before anybody else did, right? It's interesting. But I think, yeah, for young folks, definitely like you got to get in there, you got to meet people, you know, let them let them see you in 3D.
Isabel: [00:17:05] Another piece of advice, I find that folks younger in their career get very anxious about the moving up. Like, okay, I'm going to become a manager. I'm like, you need to kind of like try different things, get, get your, you know, get that build up that knowledge before you jump to be a manager because I think that often stifles people. Like then you get stuck at this like, you know, low level manager and then it's really hard to move up, right. If you if you jump too quickly into that. So like I feel like another thing is like make sure that you, you build up, try different things and not be so quick to like, okay, like if I become a manager, that's a way to, to grow but like really grow your knowledge and, and experiment in different areas and, you know, find what you're passionate about versus chasing like a title or a name. Find what you love to do, you know, and the title and the name will follow. Um, so I think that that's also pretty important, right? To, to make sure that, you know, that you're, you listen to your gut and that you know that you're, you're doing something that really energizes you, that you love, that you know. So I guess that that would be another thing. Um.
Kate: [00:18:25] I think that's a great piece of advice and I have yet to ever hear someone share that, quite frankly. So I also find that to be a unique piece of advice and it makes sense. And I think that's a really important message. I love that.
Isabel: [00:18:36] Yeah. No, I think that's 100%. And then I think then we could add to that even that there are multiple paths, right? So like at ADP, thankfully we've created we've elongated the technologist path, but you can grow in the path that suits you the best, right? So like I'm somebody who had a very long, very long in the tooth. So I've been around for a long time and I was a technologist for a long time that that's what drove me, energized me, I was excited about. And then at a certain point, I decided that I, I had different interests, like I wanted to drive change. And that's when I started to say, okay, to drive change, I need, you know, authority, I need budget, I need influence. Right. And I wasn't I, I had done a lot in like deep in the weeds of the technology. And, you know, that wasn't what was driving me anymore. Like, I sort of like, I was like, okay, I've, I've done that. Like, now, now, now what I'm looking for is more, you know, change maker, let's say. Um, and, and then I switched into a leadership role, right? You know, that that's like you shouldn't follow a prescribed journey. We all have our own journeys and you should follow very much follow your passion and try different roles and often getting those experiences in different roles. You know, that may not be the role, but it helps shape. It's like a step in the journey of like where you're going, right? It'll help drive that. Um.
Kate: [00:20:17] I had a question in regards to that. Isabel, if you don't mind.
Isabel: [00:20:19] Sure.
Isabel: [00:20:20] How do you bring your people leaders along on that journey of change with you? How did you get internal support to try something new?
Isabel: [00:20:30] To switch lanes, as it were.
Kate: [00:20:33] Yep.
Isabel: [00:20:35] So at the time I was working for Roberto. And I basically shared with him, you know, and I mean, I hadn't just like, you know, I had already been in that team. Like, I want to say 5 or 6 years, right? So it wasn't like I, you know, I just got here and whatever, you know, So I had I think I had contributed a lot to him. I knew that I had support from him, you know, like it's almost like I had already done a lot for him. And I felt like I could be honest to say, like, I love it here, but like, I wanted a change. Like I felt like if I stayed there forever, then I wasn't going to grow, right? And I think that may be another piece of advice to not get too comfortable. But so I went to him. I was, you know, was very honest and and he was supportive. So I was fortunate that he was supportive. He was a sponsor for me, you know, like in those. Yeah. And having a sponsor is definitely super important.
Kate: [00:21:41] Um, absolutely. The person who's going to mention your name when you're not in the room.
Isabel: [00:21:45] Yeah. So that that's key. And thanks to his sponsorship, I was able to, you know, get, make that big shift, um, you know, in my career. The other thing also, you know, like, you know, there was, we talked about like networking, but there's also creating almost they call it a personal, a personal board of directors, right? Where you have folks internal and external, right. That know you very well that you can be vulnerable with them. Right. And very honest with them. And they can help guide you. Everything from, you know, dealing with difficult personalities or how to navigate an org or maybe this job isn't a right fit for you. And just like, you know, helping you navigate that or I'm at a point in my life where, you know, I, I want to focus more on family. Like, what should I do? How do but I don't want to lose my career or my, you know, my footing there. Like, how do I how do I navigate that? Right. So you need like people again, a diverse, you know, call it board, right? You know, you should have women and men and leaders and, you know, like so it's really important to build that board so you can get these different almost advisors and you listen. Right? It's not like you do what they say, but it helps. It helps, you know, inform and helps you create, you know, make a decision on where do I go next.
Isabel: [00:23:24] Right? But but it's important to have those folks that you can, you know, run things by them, get their advice, you know, that that kind of thing. So I think that that personal board is is really important to have. I would also say to not be afraid to reach out to somebody. Like I've done that a few times, just, you know, leaders in the organization that I, you know, admired them from afar, you know, their leadership style, their success, some something about them that I was like, you know, I would love to have, you know, some time with so and so. Right. And not being afraid to ask them for a cup of coffee or whatever, you know, 30 minutes to pick their brain a little bit. And, you know, I don't think I've ever been turned down. Usually folks are very gracious. Obviously, you have to be very thoughtful about using their time and, you know, coming to the table with very specific questions and whatnot. Um, but I think that, you know, that's always, you know, been very fruitful. I've always learned something like taking like a, you know, a nugget, like an important nugget of, of wisdom, and then you synthesize it into into your wisdom or, you know, but I think those are also things that are important. Um.
Kate: [00:24:49] You know, what's an interesting, um, pin beneath everything that you're saying, even as you're talking about with Roberto and the board of directors and I'm sure like your personal board of directors are people that are just an ADP. However, I would also say that you absolutely probably have a board of directors of people who are in ADP because they know intimately some of these players, right? So that also helps some of the street cred when you're like, Hey, how would I manage this situation? Or, hey, what's next for me? Um, but I would say what's great about that is that ADP also fosters those sorts of relationships. So whereas you have felt like you've been able to ask Roberto, and you built your street cred with him and you proved yourself with him, what an amazing leader to want what's next for you to and say,
Isabel: [00:25:38] Yeah.
Kate: [00:25:39] Man, I'm going to miss you, right? But this is right for figure it out, right? If you want to come back, open door. But you need this for you. And that's so important too, because I don't think every place is really like that.
Isabel: [00:25:51] That 100%. Absolutely. So that that's that's a very big deal. Yeah. It's it's like, you know, having you asking, right. But also, like the fact that the leaders are receptive and, you know, they want they want folks to grow. The other thing is to not be afraid to ask for what you want. You may not get it, but I think that it's important to ask for what you want and to to advocate, advocate for yourself. Like not like sit sort of waiting for, you know, people to drive your career. Like you need to take the driver's seat and have agency on like, this is what I want. And again, they may say no, but I think it's always important that they listen to that because it may inform like you may not get it now, you might get it later. You know, people will understand you better versus just sort of like waiting for somebody to, like, you know, magically move you along. Like like I've never seen that. Maybe some people have, but I've never seen that. I think usually it's everything that I've gotten. I've asked, I want this, and I've been fortunate that many of those wants, you know, I've gotten like like when I asked Roberto, listen, I you know, I love the lab. The lab is amazing. But I want you know, I want to move on. This is why. And, you know, okay. Or, you know, when I went to when I was leading enterprise architecture, I said this gig has been amazing, but I want to lead a product team.
Isabel: [00:27:29] I think that that's that's what I'm thinking about is the next step of, you know, to round out my career. I said, I also want to go because I don't feel like I'm equipped in some ways to do the job of, you know, I've been a technologist, but I, I, I don't I'm not well versed in the whole business side of the House strategy, all that. I want to go back to school. Will you be supportive of me to like, you know, like obviously it was like time commitment. Will you recommend me? And he was like, Yeah, but like, again, these were all things that, like, I asked for, right? So you have to definitely have to ask what you want. And then I think the other thing is you have to be awesome, you know, and be awesome. I'm not saying that I'm awesome, but like, you know, you have to earn the street creds, as you said, right? And like and if you're awesome, then that opens doors, right? And people hear about you. So that's, that's important. Which also goes to like sitting in the same role for a very long time isn't good, right? You need to move around because otherwise, you know, you don't have the opportunity for other folks to know about your awesomeness, so
Kate: [00:28:46] Yes.
Isabel: [00:28:48] Um, you know, so that I think, is also important. Um.
Kate: [00:28:52] Isabel, if you don't mind, I'd love to. You know, as you're talking about, you know, asking, right. And you've, you've gotten where you are because you've said, here's where I want to go. I'd love your help in that, right. I think you probably had a very tactful way of not being like, well, I want to be a manager. You know, there's a way to go about things, right? And it's really about building a partnership so that you're raising your hand, but you're also asking for guidance respectfully, I find that a lot of times women in business don't know how to ask for these things, whether it's raising their hand, whether it's asking for more money at an offer, whether it's whatever it may be, because it feels, as we've been told, be nice, right? And so when it translates into the working world, we tend to kind of shadow. What would be your advice for women in the workforce and getting their asks heard?
Isabel: [00:29:47] So I think that what's important is really to state your case as to as to why does that make sense, right? It's not just like just because or because I've been here for a long time or because, you know, almost like pitch yourself as like, you know, I've, I've achieved X, Y, Z. I can bring more to the table. I want to learn and grow. And, you know, like, you know, when I pitched going to a product development organization, I, I'm energized by, by the creation process and bringing things to clients, to users. I love that. I want to help build and drive, you know, a business. I don't think it's just like it's not just like you go and ask like you have to come to the table with that, the street creds. And then and then you have to articulate what you want. And often that's another thing that, you know, sometimes it's hard. And that's why that personal board of directors often helps us be able to figure out what is it that you want? Because often folks come in like, well. I just want to grow, you know? Well, what does that mean? You know I can't help you. You know what I mean? Like, like what exactly do you mean? Or, you know? Well, what are you passionate about? Like, is that really what you want to do? right? Like, you know, helping you tease that out and then coming and when you when you ask for something, you know, you know exactly what you want.
Isabel: [00:31:20] And it's a lot easier to help somebody when you know exactly what they're asking for. But if you come with like a very vague and like, oh, like I just want to grow and I've been here too long and then it's kind of like I don't I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. Like, you know what I mean? You know, now I have to figure out, like, where would I, you know, that's not a compelling story. The other hand, if I come and I say, listen, this is what I've done and this is where I want to go, this is what I want, that's a different story. And again, you don't always get what you want,
Kate: [00:31:54] Sure.
Isabel: [00:31:54] But it's good to to have the conversation, right, to have that like, dialogue so that they can maybe, like make a mental note and say, okay, I can't really do that right now, but I'm going to think about or or I'm going to say, you know what? That's amazing. And this is what I think you need to work on to get there, right? Because that could also be the conversation, right? And that's okay. Right. And I think we also need to be willing to hear that. And, you know, like, okay, well, how you know, help me. Like, what would you recommend that I do so that I can build that, you know, that muscle? Um, do you have any recommendations or somebody I should talk to or having, having it be like we're both sort of collaborating, Um, like partnering, as you mentioned, like, I want to, you know, I'm asking for your help.
Isabel: [00:32:52] How do I how do I grow? We don't always have a receptive leader. You might have somebody that's like, no. Or, you know, I've seen a lot also where folks are like, Oh, this is my critical person and if I lose them, then, you know, that impacts my organization. They look at it in a selfish way, you know, that happens quite a bit as well, which is, you know, not good nor healthy. Right. But but I think you always have to, you know, have that dialogue. And then then if you see that you hit a brick wall, well, you know, then then you have to, you know, look at other alternatives. Right. But but at you know, at least definitely having the conversation. And you'll walk out of that conversation learning a lot about where you stand with that other person. Right. Like that conversation is, is often even if you don't get what you want, it's very telling, you know, and you get a lot of good information from it. So I think don't be afraid to have that dialogue like that dialogue is important. Um. And let's see.
Kate: [00:34:01] I have to tell you, I'm loving this conversation just for my own personal because a lot of the things you're saying are so validating, too, with just how I try to navigate my own career, but then also the people that I mentor because I think it's so important to ask, like I always share, you know, if your people leader doesn't know what you're looking for, how can you expect them to know? It's not fair to be frustrated with them if you haven't vocalized that, if you've vocalized, if you've had conversations, if you've asked for continuous feedback and you're still not necessarily making head roads where you'd like to see, you know, then think about what else might be next. Like, are there different avenues, are there different approaches? You know, but it's very much a two way street. And I think long gone are the days where your people manager are just going to promote you every two years or whatever. That's not how business works.
Isabel: [00:34:52] No, no, not at all.
Kate: [00:34:53] That's just not the way that it goes. So it's important to have those discussions and also, you know, own your own book of business. This is your career.
Isabel: [00:35:01] That's right.
Kate: [00:35:02] What do you want? What's going to inspire you? Who is going to be your network? Um, yeah. So here's what works well, because. Right, Because I think there's also that line of transparency where not everything is going to be a win. No, you are not going to have an A-plus day every day. And that's okay because you're a human and I'm a human and everyone else is a human. But I think it's so important to fall on that humble sword and be like, here's what I could have done better in this situation and kind of own your own course correction, because then that leader is going to be like Isabel self-aware. I actually haven't thought about that, but she's right. I love that she thought about that and I know next time it's going to be even better than it was before.
Isabel: [00:35:42] 100%.100%. Like, I think it's much worse to just like, you know, not take that step, you know, to be afraid to fail. Like definitely, you know, um, you know, you have to be bold and also think out of the box, right? Like that's, that's where I was in a situation where that organization we were struggling to make headwinds. And I was like, you know, how how can we make this thing viable? And I was also like, at that point, kind of like, if it's not viable, then I don't want to be part of it, you know? You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to just sit here and like, yeah, this is like, like a, you know, a very good, you know, almost like from a com perspective, like a highly paid team of people. But like, if we can't get the right credibility, then like, I'm out, like, I don't want to be part of that, you know, which was a big driver for me. Like, we need to be bold. We need to do something. This thing flies or we should kill it. Like, you know, we shouldn't just be here, like wallowing and not bringing real value to the organization, you know? So, yeah, but like, you know, again, I think, I think that's important.
Isabel: [00:36:16] And then also like sense making, kind of like understanding like what's going on around you, you know, like, so that you're not sort of blindsided. Right? You know, sometimes you get a false sense of security, you know, because you're not asking the questions and you're not really looking a little bit broader to your little piece of the the world. Um, you know, and it kind of goes back to that board, that personal board, right? Like it's important to be plugged in. I think early in my career, I was not well plugged in. I was very like heads down and just like doing my job and like, just like, you know, like totally heads down. And I think it's good to not be, you know, to be plugged in, not so plugged in that you're distracted, but, you know, be aware of what's going on in the bigger picture because that that will help. You'll learn a lot. Right. And you'll you'll learn a lot about where do I go? What should I do, You know, do it does my little world, like, how does it fit into the big picture? You know? So I think those things are are important.
Kate: [00:37:25] And you're right about being heads down because it's almost like you're not thinking big picture because what you're thinking is, I just got this job. I am so grateful to be here. I want to prove that I deserve a spot. I want to show my people leader that they made the right decision. And so you're just go, go, go. And it's really interesting because we're all that's true. There's also a way to also know that you earned your seat at the table. You know, your people leader hired you for a reason. They saw things. So be kind to yourself as you're getting in whatever new role this may be. Yeah. And take that time to to network within the team and with the partners who you're going to be supporting. And that's okay.
Isabel: [00:38:09] Yeah, absolutely. Because that that also gets you more that that's how you get those other sponsors, right? Like, like a sponsor. You have to earn sponsorship. Like you don't say. Hey. Hey be my sponsor. That's not how it works, right?
Kate: [00:38:25] Yeah, right. Thank you for your time. I can't wait to see you in two weeks.
Isabel: [00:38:27] Thank you.
Kate: [00:38:28] All right. Thanks, Isabel. Talk to you later.